Bohdan Yaremenko: Lukashenka Must Be Removed As Soon As Possible

The Belarusian Kastus Kalinovsky Regiment is a natural ally of Ukraine.

Member of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine from the political party "Servant of the People" Bohdan Yaremenko became a guest of the Studio X97 show by the Charter97.org website. He spoke about the Ukrainian policy towards Belarus, possible responses to threats emanating from the territory of our country, the cooperation of the Ukrainian authorities with the Kastus Kalinouski Regiment and the future without dictator Lukashenka. Host — Yevhen Klimakin.

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— Sir Bogdan, good afternoon! Are you in Kyiv now?

— Good afternoon! Yes, I am in Kyiv, on the left bank, in my apartment. It's a pleasure to welcome you.

— Bohdan Yaremenko, deputy of the Servant of the People party, deputy of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, an experienced diplomat. What are the sentiments in Kyiv now?

— The sentiments do not change in Kyiv, they are anxious. Kyivites are experienced in fighting Batu Khan in their city, dying in their city, and defending it, and therefore difficulties are overcome in one way or another and people try to live an ordinary life.

But we must pay tribute to the agility and pressure (of course, worthy of better use) Russians destroy our energy system. And to be honest, even our interview was a big question, since Kyiv has a rolling blackout schedule. In some locations, it can be 8 hours a day, and in some 4 hours a day. At the moment this is a minor inconvenience, but unfortunately, the bombing continues and the inconvenience can become a real problem.

Everyone sees it, and everyone understands it. Plus, of course, the bombardments take our citizens away from us every day. On the other hand, we are all very angry, we have learned to hate more than to love. We are absolutely sure of our victory. And I think that this is a misunderstanding of all the Russians, they do not understand that they are making themselves worse. That is, they repel more and more, if it is possible to repel somewhere more, from Russia. They kill the possibility of normal coexistence for generations.

And most importantly, they have tempered us, and made us united. As a matter of fact, we have learned to perfectly forget political and other differences in views and attitudes when it comes to war. Everyone, as in an anthill, is pulling something for the war, trying to do something, pulling some kind of straw for the common good and the common cause. And that's how we will win.

— I have a question for you as for an experienced diplomat. Why did Ukraine not break off diplomatic relations with Belarus?

— Recently, I even tried to speak publicly on this topic both in the Ukrainian media and on the Charter’97 website. It's bad political heredity. For a very long time we did not know how to place accents and choose the right balance between a valued policy, a policy based on values, moral and ethical principles, and interests.

There are some corrupt motives, motives for easy and quick earnings, especially if we talk about our neighbours, with whom we studied at the same institutes and graduated from the same schools that are mentally pure (I mean Ukrainians and Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians). Unfortunately, that social stage has not yet been passed when it is more important to earn more money when it seems that the more beautiful things, the better.

This philosophy, the mentality after the collapse of the USSR leads to the fact that very often political decisions are made not from the point of view of strategic interests, but from the point of view of economic, financial, mercantile, and sometimes corruptive considerations, those who managed to break through to power, those who managed to whisper, convince of something, tell some fables like "let's trade in electricity or milk". It can be anything, I'm giving an example.

Speaking about Belarus, there are both things. Either Belneftekhim's products are in the game, or something else. "Let's trade something, and if Lukashenka allows it, then he is not so bad." That's how it's all shown. This level of thinking, in which there is no understanding of the strategic perspective that this is a state allied with Russia, was completely subordinated a long time ago. This is not the same situation as 2014 situation.

— That's not all. It is headed by the killer, the lives of his own citizens, and now even Ukrainians, are on his conscience.

— You see. We live in the other country and feel it less. We watch the news, but, unfortunately, there are so many killers in the highest positions in the world. I fully agree with everything and perfectly understand the absolutely non-human, wild personality of Lukashenka, but compared to Putin, this is a very perverted white bunny. You are right, he strangled oppositionists and killed several dozen and so on, but on the sly. The actual situation is more complicated, especially when there are much brighter and more dynamic examples of murderers, satraps and maniacs nearby, Lukashenka, perhaps, is lost somewhere among them. Despite the fact that many understand the essence, but are distracted by much more serious problems.

Ukrainian policy towards Belarus has been changing since the so-called presidential elections. In fact, it began to change even earlier. It's already the Second Convocation when we do not recognize the parliamentary elections in Belarus. Therefore, we do not approve of any formal institutions, or some kind of friendship with the Belarusian “parliament”. Because we do not consider him legitimate, we do not consider him legally elected, we do not consider him elected on the basis of democratic, legal principles, the OSCE principles. And, of course, we did not recognize the presidential election.

We are following this sequence now and there were signs of an improvement in our thinking and perception: including the fact that you said that this is a murderer and the hand with which you greet Aliaksandr Lukashenka is very difficult to touch something because it is bloody.

The Belarusian topic and the Belarusian direction are the most swampy areas in the foreign policy of Ukraine. Unfortunately, I am forced to admit this, and at this point, there is something to criticize Ukraine for, which, in fact, we are successfully doing here. And not in vain, as we change this attitude.

— What is your forecast for when diplomatic relations with Minsk will be broken?

— I think that the logic of war will still lead to this. We are at war with Belarus. It cannot be concealed, it is impossible to hide. These are all explanations: "Yes, the ground units of Belarus did not take part in the assaults on Kyiv and Chernihiv." It's all for kids. Everyone understands everything. Everyone feels it.

We must understand that, in fact, the severance of diplomatic relations will not significantly change anything. We now have the lowest level of relations with Lukashenka. This is just a symbolic gesture, it needs to be done and it will be done. But more important is what we are going to do after that. Will we break off relations and see no Belarus? Does it exist? Has the war ended? No! On the contrary, we will sever diplomatic relations and the issue will become much more acute and serious. There was a bad Lukashenka, we somehow communicated with him, and tried to negotiate, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. And now everyone broke off relations and there is no dialogue at all. This will be possible only in the distant lobbies of foreign policy, through some kind of intermediaries, but not directly. What will we do then?

If the Belarusian authorities, from our point of view, are illegitimate, then who is capable of negotiations? What is our policy? What are the goals of our policy? Therefore, many (I feel, this because there are now more discussions about Belarus in the Ukrainian media) believe that this is a fundamental step - breaking off diplomatic relations. For me, this is one of the steps and, perhaps, this is the first step towards understanding and then implementing some new approaches, a new policy of Ukraine towards Belarus.

— The latest news about the meeting of Ukrainian deputies, also of different factions, with representatives of the Kalinouski Regiment. Maybe this was the step towards establishing relations with a free, democratic Belarus. I will quote: "The desire to cooperate with representatives of the Kalinouski Regiment as legitimate representatives of the Belarusian people".

— There are several levels to this story. Firstly, indeed, an inter-factional deputy association is one of the forms of work of deputies, members of the Ukrainian parliament. It is very important. We cannot have a formal friendship with Belarus, because we do not recognize the Belarusian “parliament” in this case. Therefore, we have found another way to cooperate with Belarus and its representatives.

The Parliament of Ukraine understands the essence of Lukashenka, the hostile essence of his regime, it understands that Belarus is an occupied state. Also, there will be no controversy in the Ukrainian parliament regarding the perception of the Kalinouski Regiment. Yes, it's a part of the Armed Forces, and deputies are obliged to support the Armed Forces, we all do this daily without exception. And the Kalinouski Regiment, from a formal point of view, is part of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the same part that needs help.

We have a people's war, and we could not prepare the Armed Forces for this war, because they are now increased 5 times compared to what it was before the war. In fact, we lack almost everything, but we are obliged to help, and we do it. All military personnel of the Kalinouski Regiment are soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. They have contracts that can be terminated. In any case, they have Belarusian passports and they are citizens of Belarus, we also perceive them as representatives of the Belarusian community.

There were issues at this meeting because there are also our legislative provisions with an unfair attitude towards the citizens of Belarus, not towards the military personnel of the regiment. There are a lot of reasons why we must, must and will work with the Kalinouski Regiment. It is wrong to limit it to the fact that it was a meeting with the opposition, although, of course, this was also one of the issues.

We have an interest there as a state, which comprehends its policy towards Belarus, and understands that the Belarusian opposition must be united in order to resolve the issues facing Ukraine. If the Belarusians do not resolve the issues of threats from their territory towards Ukraine on their own, we, of course, will resolve these issues differently, without the Belarusians. But it is better that the Belarusian society itself resolves this.

We can talk about Belarusian society only with the opposition. Of course, we are interested in strong and influential opposition. These conversations will be conducted with everyone, not only with the Kalinouski Regiment. There are no secrets and misunderstandings in this regard. I think that it is thanks to such people as the soldiers of the Kalinouski Regiment that in the future there will be world support for those movements in the opposition and society in Belarus that will lead to the overthrow of Lukashenka and the dismantling of pro-Russian statehood and the return to national, democratic, legal Belarus.

These are the national interests of Ukraine. Sorry if someone does not like this, but we will not be able to exist safely in Ukraine if Belarus is a pro-Russian territory without a national identity, if dictate, voluntarism, and not law, continue to rule there. Because this state is unpredictable, an idiot goes on the air there, as we see it every day, says some kind of nonsense, impudence and builds politics in the same way. I am talking about Lukashenka.

Of course, if Russian military bases remain there, we will never (and not only we) be able to feel safe. So, yes, we will address these issues. Yes, the Kalinovites are ready to resolve these issues themselves, but at the same time, they need some kind of support. We are ready, to communicate with Belarusians, with all representatives of any opposition movements, organizations and institutions, including, first of all, the Kalinouski Regiment, to identify these issues, discuss them among ourselves, and then find a way to present the problems of Belarus with human rights and other things and defend these interests in the international arena. This is our hand of political and diplomatic assistance. It's totally sincere.

— You said the following phrase, talking about the Kalinovites: "They are the same soldiers as the Ukrainians." However, I know that this was perceived very negatively in the Belarusian segment of the Internet. In the light of Ukrainian legislation today, if a fighter, for example, of the Kalinouski Regiment, who is a citizen of Belarus, dies, then he is not entitled to these 15 million hryvnias, which are due to the family of a Ukrainian soldier. Could you comment, please?

— Look, the soldiers are those who fight. You started talking about social protection issues. Those Kalinovites who will take citizenship of Ukraine, will, of course, be subject to the entire legislation of Ukraine. But we cannot extend this, even from a practical point of view with regard to citizens of foreign states. We simply cannot withstand such a burden, we have a lot of foreign volunteers.

It's not even that. The problem is that people who prefer to save their citizenship have different conditions for a legal stay on the territory of Ukraine, but this does not change our attitude towards them as Ukrainian soldiers. Some of the legislation will be reviewed.

I understand why the Kalinovites do not want to change their citizenship, although, to be honest, from the point of view of security and, moreover, some social benefits, this would solve many issues. I mean even in cases of captivity. We understand how sad the fate of the citizens of Belarus, fighting in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, will be. Most likely, they will be given to Lukashenka to be torn to pieces. This makes us sad, but this is the choice of these people. They know and understand the conditions clearly.

We also discussed other unpleasant situations that have been and are happening in Ukraine, we will address these issues. But we need to make some changes to the legislation. There are questions and there are a lot of them. This also applies to citizens of Ukraine.

— We are in a very difficult situation right now. At the moment, it is very complicated for us to financially provide for our Armed Forces, not to mention all the other social benefits for ordinary citizens who do not fight. It is very hard for us to handle the war financially. These are huge costs, they are killing the economy, they are destroying the financial system. Therefore, we cannot resolve all issues at once, but those that need to be resolved, those that arise from below, prevent people from living normally, from feeling confident — they are being resolved, and this issue will also be resolved. But once again I repeat: for this it is necessary that there be some kind of political will, movement, so that the question is raised from below — from the regiment.

— The Kalinouski regiment set up a soim — a political government. In your opinion, what are the prospects for this body?

— This is the internal affairs of the regiment. The guys with whom we communicate are very politically literate. They have a very developed political self-awareness, a sense of responsibility. That is, at some stage they realized for themselves that the perception of the regiment is already so serious in Belarus, in the world, in Europe, that they need to take responsibility not only for participating in hostilities, for the liberation of Ukraine, and then Belarus, but also for some political aspects of life in Belarus. They decided to acquire political subjectivity in this way.

Fine. There are quite many Belarusians in Ukraine, there is a Belarusian community, there are people who join these political projects and movements. Our first contacts showed that we have no ideological disagreements. They create these political structures with the aim of returning Belarus to the norms of law, to the norms of European democracy.

We talk with them about the prospects after the dismantling of the Lukashenka regime and the de-occupation of Belarus, about the reforms of the Armed Forces, defense and security forces in accordance with NATO standards. This is what we live with. There is nothing different. Therefore, if this political structure continues to deal with these issues, we will provide all possible assistance. If you need our expertise, our knowledge, if you need organizational assistance, we, of course, will help.

— Tell me, why is the Ukrainian government so distancing itself from Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya and her entourage? After all, there have already been appeals and calls that she is ready in every possible way.

— Recently, I started taking more interest in Belarusian issues, in view of the problems that the Kalinouski regiment faces. I just figured things out, got to know these people and so on, and began to help. I am surprised at the general formulation of this question.

Why should the Ukrainian authorities have any sort of positive attitude towards Tsikhanouskaya? Why? There is some Belarusian politician who once said something stupid about Ukraine, who lives in Lithuania somewhere. What should we do about this? I just do not understand. What are you expecting from us?

We have other Belarusian politicians on the territory of Ukraine, we have other Belarusians on the territory of Ukraine, who are in full solidarity with us, who help us in the war, who fight with us, who see the future of Belarus very clearly, very precisely, and we cannot change in this vision, we'd like to just help them do it.

If Mrs. Tsikhanouskaya has certain plans, or some ideas, in the implementation of which she needs help from the government of Ukraine, the Ukrainian authorities, and the Ukrainian people, then we, firstly, must hear these ideas, see them. For this, it is not necessary to come to Ukraine. We all read, we all know, and you can come, no one interferes, for this it is not necessary to meet at the highest level. Please come, tell us, convince, especially since the beginning of Mrs. Tsikhanouskaya's political career was such that she would have to convince us that she had views that are not pro-Russian, that she indeed is a leader who can lead her country.

And the country is reaching the point when, excuse me, no one will be able to overthrow Lukashenka's power there peacefully. And we saw very indecisive actions on the part of Tsikhanouskaya and her entourage during the protests, but which caused discord and, it seems to me, did not help the protesters achieve their goal. We heard very well all the recent pro-Ukrainian statements, for which we thank you, but they came somewhat late. We would like to hear them from a presidential candidate in a neighboring country, and not from a fugitive politician.

Therefore, the price of these statements is somewhat different then and now. We hear, we are grateful, we share them, and so on, but obviously more time is needed for the parties to better understand each other, to trust, to find a common language. And personally, I do not see sufficient efforts on the part of Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya personally and her entourage to reach such an understanding with Ukraine. Just criticizing us for not meeting with someone is too little to build that trust.

Therefore, this is a rather complicated question, and it is not reasonable for the purposes of political swordplay, imposing some ideas, to primitize and reduce it to the question: “But why don’t you meet with her?” Let's talk about what, who and how will change Belarus. We are interested in talking to everyone.

— And whose regime will collapse first: Lukashenka’s or Putin’s, in your opinion?

— It's hard to predict. On the one hand, it is clear that without the support of Russia, without the support of Putin, life will be very hard for Lukashenka, but at the same time, we understand that if the fall of the Putin regime does not happen in the most radical way, but by some kind of palace coup and so on, the power then will be successive. Of course, Lukashenka will continue to milk the Russians, lie, and squirm in order to get some resources. This will prolong his existence. That is, if such a scenario and Russia in some form of the current government continues, then it will be more difficult with Lukashenka.

But, on the other hand, everything also depends on the priority of understanding their threats from Ukraine, Lithuania, Poland, NATO countries, and so on. That is, if at a certain stage the fighting in Ukraine becomes less violent, there will be some kind of calm period — we will not have any peace agreements until our territory returns and we regain control over everything that was taken from us by force. But it is clear that anything can happen from the point of view of some temporary lulls and forces will be released in order to remove threats in other directions — and this is Transnistria and Belarus.

It cannot be ruled out that the threat from Belarus will become a higher priority, since we see that even those forms of participation in the war against Ukraine that are supported by the Lukashenka government are very dangerous for us. Constant shelling is no less harmful than ground operations. Here, much less time is needed for an approach, including to the capital. And the security of the capital in this case is extremely important. Not that we divide citizens, but in the capital there is a lot of everything that is connected with the management of the country, the state, and, of course, it needs to be protected more carefully. And it’s difficult for us, because there are less than 200 kilometers directly here. These are completely different minutes for a rocket or drone to fly in compared to what is launched from the Caspian Sea, when we can get an understanding in advance, even 30-40 minutes in advance, how many of them are flying, what exactly is flying, and approximately where it will land.

When this is launched from the territory of Belarus, only a few minutes remain to make a decision and analyze the threat from missiles or drones entering our airspace, that is, it does not allow anyone to be saved, we cannot react.

Yes, we may have a situation where the threat from Belarus will be much more tangible than on other fronts. Moreover, threats come from the territory of Belarus to NATO countries. Therefore, everything is possible, in any case, we need to prepare for the fact that the regime in Belarus is not going to democratize, is not going to leave, is not going to make life easier for its people, it must be removed by any means — the sooner the better.

— At the turn of 2013, you created the Maidan of Foreign Affairs, an important organization of this kind, I would even say an intellectual center that provided expert assessments regarding the international situation. Now its experts work in many serious key positions for Ukraine. Am I right?

— It was important not that I created this analytical center. It is important, in fact, that there are many such centers in Ukraine. In this regard, Ukraine is a very normal and very strong country. We are stronger than many European countries in our ability to have an open discussion, to understand our future, to have an alternative view. This is, in fact, why, as a result of the revolution, I was squeezed out of my work in state authorities, where my career took shape for more than 21 years. I chose to serve my community in the same way as all the experts who have worked in our organization. Almost all of them left the civil service, left it in order to work in the public, non-state sector, and this was very honest.

This is not some kind of game, when very often in many semi-democratic countries various state bodies are inspired and engaged in imitation of public life, imitation of non-state centers, financing somewhere on the sly. And it was very honest, it was frank, the specialists of the highest world class worked there. Now some of them remain such, they work successfully in the private sphere. Some help the state authorities of Ukraine. Some have entered power and are working on very serious positions.

A smart person, a world-class expert, with experience in government agencies, is always in demand. They do not just draw theoretical castles in the air, but understand perfectly well how, for example, the defense sphere works, and realize that any beautiful idea needs to be implemented by people who sit in positions all their lives and understand nothing about beauty. They need to be taught, forced, and so on in any ministry.

By the way, this also awaits Belarus after the overthrow of the Lukashenka regime. That is precisely why we must communicate with those who want to change something, because we have accumulated a huge experience in this and we are in process, we understand that we have not achieved anything, we are moving and there can be no final achievement. We can convey the dynamics, understanding of these processes — with this, we, I hope, can be very useful for those who will overthrow the Lukashenka regime, and we will help a lot.

— Here is the last question I would like to ask you. The end of the war. What will it be like? What will follow for Russia, Belarus and Ukraine?

— For a very long time, I saw the end of the war like this: our advanced units watching the withdrawal of the Russian Federation formations across the Crimean bridge, and the yellow-blue banner hoisted over all the occupied villages and cities of Ukraine. Now I think our victory will be embodied in the disintegration of the Russian Federation and the termination of its existence as a unitary state.

— And what about Belarus?

— The future of Belarus will be decided by this. If the Lukashenka regime loses what it sucks out of Russia, I think that Belarusians will finally cope on their own, without anyone's help, including ours. The regime, greatly weakened after the loss of the Russian master, will leave one way or another, will be overthrown, defeated, and democracy will be restored. In this part of the world, authoritarian states will not take root. This is my vision for the future.

— Thanks. Dyakuyu.

— Dyakuyu to you, too.

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