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Catholic Priest Viachaslau Barok: If Laws Do Not Work, Uprising Will Surely Happen

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Catholic Priest Viachaslau Barok: If Laws Do Not Work, Uprising Will Surely Happen
CATHOLIC PRIEST VIACHASLAU BAROK

Belarusian priest tells when the Lukashenka regime will fall.

The legendary Belarusian priest Viachaslau Barok, who became one of the leaders of the Belarusian Resistance to the dictatorship in 2020, shared his thoughts on the situation in Belarus in the new show of the Charter97.org website Studio Х97.

“When laws cease to work and a person cannot protect their fundamental rights, their dignity, relying only on laws, the uprising as such becomes an obligation for the whole country and society. In addition, the Catholic Church says that under certain conditions, an armed protest is morally justified. There is no justification for those who wage an aggressive war, but for those who defend themselves, their lives, their home, it is morally justified,” the priest believes.

The host of the show is Yevhen Klimakin.

Subscribe to the Charter97 Youtube channel — charter97video. Share videos with your friends. Like and write comments.

— Father, you served in the Vitsebsk region, in 2020, during the Revolution, you were imprisoned for 10 days, in fact, for telling the truth about what was happening in Belarus. A year ago, you were forced to emigrate to Poland. To put it bluntly, for so many people you are a moral authority. And so I want to ask how people should behave in such situation, what to do when we all witness genocide, and are dealing with, by and large, absolute evil? I mean Putin, Lukashenka, all these lackeys who surround them and who do terrible things.

— I have always been convinced that no matter what conditions you live in, under what circumstances, you can always remain human. And no matter the genocide today, no matter how terrible the war is, the aggression of Russia against Belarus, against Ukraine, nevertheless, in these conditions, a person must be a human.

I am not calling on people to be heroes. Heroism is a personal choice of a person. But even at this time, people should not do disgusting things to each other. A person cannot justify their opportunism, like, today they work for the regime, being a security official, just because they have a family and they need to think about their family. Everyone needs to think about family.

— You have to feed them.

— Yes.One needs to provide for one’s family. But such mercantile impulses simply cause the degradation of a person. To be human, to do good, to avoid evil is possible.

— Let's get back to 2020, when many media wrote about you, about your video messages, when you called a spade a spade. Before you started, since you are an adult person, you probably realized what the consequences could be. Did you hesitate whether to tell the truth or not?

— I am a very rational person, I understand what is happening. But at the time when I say that one must remain human, I am a priest and have no right to remain silent. Many people say that the church is compromised because of silence, and a priest is also compromised because of silence. A priest becomes a priest not in order to somehow survive, to somehow maintain his activity, he must be a servant of God and speak the truth in this world, regardless of whether they want to hear it or not.

Therefore, I started my activity on the youtube channel, it was at the beginning of 2020, although it was still a “quiet” time. At the beginning of the year, little said that there would be such civil movements in our country, but even then I reasoned that it was possible. And on the eve of 2020, congratulating my subscribers on the New Year, I said that the time was coming when we would have to defend our human dignity not only with words, but also, perhaps, by force, perhaps even with weapons. Of course, then it was far from the protests, but it was predictable. The atmosphere was like this.

— Father, you anticipated my next question. I just wanted to ask you, what do you think about armed resistance?

— There is no need to think about whether an armed protest is permissible or not. When laws cease to work and a person cannot protect their fundamental rights, their dignity, relying only on laws, the uprising as such becomes an obligation for the whole country and society. In addition, the Catholic Church says that under certain conditions, an armed protest is morally justified.

There is no justification for those who wage an aggressive war, but for those who defend themselves, who defend themselves, their home, it is morally justified. Also in society, if there is no way to change the situation in any other way than by force, then this is also possible if certain conditions have occurred, when there are simply no other options.

— Are there other options in Belarus?

— We have been convinced for two years that there are no other options. You just need to protect yourself, protect a life, a decent life, when you can just live by the law.

— Nevertheless, armed resistance involves casualties, and death. And here, some humanists could tell you: father, how about “thou shalt not kill”.

— To humanists, pacifists, to all those who adhere to such erroneous teachings, I will say one thing: in Belarus we are talking about the fact that there was no forceful resistance, there was a peaceful protest. Is there blood being shed today? Blood spilled. People were killed right on camera. Are there tortures of people in Belarusian prisons today? People are being tortured.

— They torture, rape, do whatever they want.

— Yes. The number of suicides is on the rise. And you call this “peaceful way”? This is what you call “ideas of pacifism”? But there is no glory of God in this, it would be more worthy, nevertheless, to stop the aggressor, to stop the criminal, to stop the enemy who threatens not only you, but the whole country.

— Father, in one of your interviews you said: “When terrible things happen, the church cannot and has no right to stand aside.” How do you see the situation now? I am talking about the Catholic Church, and the Belarusian situation now during the war in Ukraine.

— The Catholic Church, if it remains silent, is compromised. The church has no right to remain silent. There was such a saint Edith Stein, who lived in Germany, and when Hitler came to power, she wrote a letter to the Pope: why is the Church silent? She demanded that the Church speak out about the evil that was established in Germany. And, of course, the Church should speak out. Although, I note, there are times when it is better for some hierarchs to remain silent. Because when you are silent, you are compromised, and when you speak out and stand on the side of evil or say something ambiguous, then this is even more of a compromise.

Unfortunately, today we see many such problems. It is also unacceptable, as Pope Francis spoke not so long ago when he recalled the terrorist attack in Moscow and the death of Daria Dugina. This is a professional propagandist who, in her statements, preached the ideology of the Russian Empire. She did not give the right to be independent to Belarus, Ukraine, she did not allow this. She was among those who created this war. And the pontiff says it's an innocent victim.

— It's also important when he says it. On the Independence Day of Ukraine, August 24, he said this. That was like a slap in the face.

— This mistake is unforgivable. I hope there will be words of apology. This means that even the narrative regarding the victims on one side and the other should be different. There must be different rhetoric. We cannot say that there are victims on both sides. No! We must be just and we must be faithful to God. And if we, Belarusians, are experiencing this today, Ukrainians are experiencing it, then, of course, it hurts them to hear such words. These words are like adding fuel to the fire, and this is unforgivable. Therefore, sometimes it is better to remain silent, but, on the other hand, it is impossible to remain silent.

— You recalled the Second World War, and the fact that the Catholic Church then did not do what it should have done. We remember what happened after the Second World War, when the hierarchs of the Catholic Church helped the Nazis leave for the countries of Latin America, covered up the criminals, the people responsible for thousands of human victims. And now it turns out that the Catholic Church as an organization has not drawn any conclusions. Because, the story with Dugina, and the fact that the Pope cannot pronounce the word “war”, say who is the victim in this situation, who is the aggressor in this situation, he wants to go to Russia ...

— It is very good that we are raising this problem, the question is correct. But for objectivity, it should be noted that in the 20th century, the Popes and the Church took the officially correct position. Several documents were published against fascism, Nazism, against this ideology, against German fascism, against Italian fascism. There were also Popes against the communist regime, against the communist ideology.

— John Paul II wrote about this.

— Yes. And here it is very important that officially the Catholic Church took a position against these teachings, they saw a mistake. What are we missing today? That the Catholic Church has not yet taken a position on the ideology of the “Russian world”. This ideology is wrong, it leads to war, it is criminal. Personally, I do not forbid either the bishop or the Pope to love Putin, kiss, hug, dream of meeting — this is their own business. Of course, this is disgusting, but I have no complaints about them as people. The man is free. But the Church should express an unequivocal position. We have the Bible, we have the truth, and based on this, we must say that the ideology of the “Russian world” is wrong and evil.

— How do you feel about being part of this organization?

— It's a pain first of all. Because I love the Church, I belong to it. If I criticize the Church, why do I criticize it — because I am part of it, and it is important for me that the Church is real. When someone tries to maneuver, when he says that he dreams of going to Russia and forgets about the existence of Belarus, of course, I feel pain and misunderstanding.

How so? What right and who gives permission not to see the crucified Belarus? Why are priests imprisoned in Belarus, and everyone is silent? Why can't I return? Why are people killed, shot on camera, and at the same time high hierarchs have very friendly relations with the authorities?

I want to hear explanations. It's not me who should give them. I did nothing bad, for me, a yes is a yes, a no is a no. And the one who, while in the Church, uses political words instead of preaching words, is a politician — so let him explain himself.

— What should be done for those who lost heart after 2020, people who were positive and believed in victory?

— We need to find something to rely on. One must not be disappointed, one must not succumb to depression, life goes on, the struggle has not stopped, and one must look for moments where one can strengthen oneself.

For each of us, for believers, the strength is the Lord, our faith. And for a person who does not believe in God, history is an amplification. We must learn Belarusian history, learn how rich it is. To look at the events that are taking place today, from the perspective of the thousand-year history of Belarus, and then calmness comes and you understand that everything is going in the right direction. Belarus will be free.

— The main problem of Belarusians — what is it?

— It seems to me that the main problem today is that many Belarusians refuse to think. Most people do not have a causal relationship in thinking. This means that a person sees events, sees certain phenomena of social life, but does not see the reasons why certain processes occur.

Man, in principle, does not want to think. And when a person refuses to think, he becomes a very easy victim of propaganda, which applies certain schemes to thinking. A person, without thinking, succumbs to what television tells them. And then there is no way out, there is no way to escape from this deceit and violence. And when people learn to think and see causal relationships in the processes in which we live, then there will be a way out of this situation.

— Father, I have no doubt that this interview with you will be watched, including by the people who work for the Lukashenka regime, and are part of it. What would you like to tell them?

— I would like to say the same. Start thinking! The fact that you serve the regime today and justify it by saying that “I need to live, I need to feed my family, I need to work, and what can be changed” ... Very soon, everything can change in one moment. And although I have not lived much time yet, I survived this moment. I remember the 1980s when there was religious persecution, when there was the Soviet Union. I was a small child at school, but even I felt this persecution. I remember these people who changed very quickly. Either they were atheists and communists, and suddenly they jumped — and they are sitting on the first bench in the church.

— As they say, “changed shoes in the air”.

— Yes. All this happened very quickly. And I am convinced that such a situation can happen again in Belarus. And therefore, it’s better today to actually think about your family, about yourself, so that tomorrow you don’t have to cry over spilled milk: “why didn’t I think about it?” Think today! Make your choice today!

— For Ukraine, Russia today is an enemy. For today's civilized world, the West, Russia is an enemy. Is Russia an enemy for Belarus today?

— Not only today. It was an enemy yesterday. In 2020, when presidential elections failed to take place in Belarus, the regime held on with the support of Russia. This was supported by Russia. And that is why Russia is an enemy, an enemy of free Belarus. Not only today, Belarus was previously occupied by Russia before it broke into the territory of Ukraine.

— Looking at the situation, what is happening now, what do you think, what should we prepare for, what will happen next? Further it will be worse, further it will be better, what can we expect, in your opinion?

— I see what I see. The situation is developing, there is no stagnation. What will happen next? Next will be victory. The good must win. Ukraine must resist the aggressor, Ukraine must win this war, and the international community must support Ukraine so that it can defend its territory, its independence. But at the same time, we understand that this all causes an even greater conflict. But we should not be afraid of a greater conflict, but we should be afraid that at one moment someone will say: “let's freeze the situation, let's stop it, let's not supply weapons to Ukraine and then the war will stop.” This is an erroneous opinion.

— If we act according to this principle, then, on the contrary, it will spread further and go beyond the borders of Ukraine.

— Yes. But this is what those “high moral authorities” say until such time as they are not in real danger. As soon as it starts threatening them, then they will speak differently. So in these words, in this narrative “if we stop the supply of weapons, the war will stop”, there is no truth. It's just a hoax.

— How can Belarusians release their political prisoners? What can be done today in this context? After all, we know that many opposition leaders are behind bars.

— We must always think about political prisoners, we cannot forget about them. We need to support them in different ways. We must write letters, we must send parcels, we must. All this needs to be done, but it is not enough. It is necessary that the Belarusians understand that one cannot trade political prisoners, one cannot make certain concessions with the regime: “you stay in power further, live opposite to the law — just release a few political prisoners.”

The regime would like to conduct this trade: “we take hostages, we put people in jail, and you lift the sanctions and we release people.” It should not be so. First, people must be released, first justice must be done for those who committed these crimes, who beat and tortured people, criminal cases should be opened, and then we can talk about the possibility of having a dialogue with those who sit in this government.

— Will Lukashenka and Putin burn in hell? Should they burn in hell for what they do and did?

— For what they do — of course, but whether they will is another question. Because they are still alive. And there is a chance to repent, and there is a chance to change life. I don't know what plans the Lord has for them. I know one thing, that if they choose lawlessness today, then they definitely turn away from God. The one who turns away from God has no place in the Kingdom of God.

Lukashenka, building a regime in Belarus, said that he had “no time for laws”. And this phrase is very powerful. With these words, a person speaks not only against justice, the law, but also against the Lord, against God, therefore the one who gives the law is the Lord. If you say “no time for laws”, it means that you are saying “no time for God”. And if a person is not up to God, then how can one hope that he will have a place in the Kingdom of God? First there must be repentance, and then only to speak on this topic.

On Christian holidays, they go to temples, they light candles. For them, the church is some sort of a screen? Power, which is actually far from God, but rather comes from the devil, is covered with divine decorations.

It's a screen, it's a mask. And in this we see that people understand, those who are in power and who do illegal things, that they are criminals. And so they hide behind such screens. But Christ says, “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will receive the kingdom of God”. Even if you come to the temple and call out your prayers, this does not mean that you will receive the Kingdom of God. And even more so when you simply use the Church, the Church instrumentally, only to hide behind, or flirt with religious figures in order to receive some personal dividends. This is not a moral life.

— In 2020, you posted a poster “Stop Lukashism” on the Internet and, in fact, got 10 days behind bars for this. I read your interview after you were released. You said you were treated tolerably there. However, I would like to ask: during the 10 days that you spent there, what was the most difficult?

— The hardest part was that you don’t know when you will be released. On the one hand, you received a court sentence of 10 days of arrest, and on the other hand, you don’t know how the regime will play with you, let you out or not. Until the last minute it was not clear whether I will walk free. And this uncertainty was the most annoying.

— Who were your cellmates?

— I shared the cell with 8 people, and the cell was always full. The cellmates were authoritative people, as they say, half of them spent most of their lives in prison, serving criminal cases. Criminals did not boast that they were criminals. There was a man who lived 54 years, 27 of them in prison, but he admitted that he was a criminal. He did not object to his imprisonment, because he understood that this was justice.

But at the same time, I found more adequacy in the eyes of my cellmates than in those who “protected” us. They were more appropriate. They couldn't understand why I was with them. They knew who they were, they knew their life experiences, they knew they were former criminals. I spoke out publicly against the totalitarian regime — and I was also thrown in a cell.

— Moreover, they tried to frame you with “propaganda of fascism”.

— Yes. Spread of Nazism and Fascism. And when I told my cellmates what I was in prison for, they laughed at me. They did not believe me, they said: “Priest, say why are you really here for. What you say is impossible.” When they were convinced that I was telling the truth, they said: “Yes, Belarus has no future, something must be done here.”

They understood that there are no laws in prison, they understood that there are no laws outside prison. No one knew where it would be better to be: inside or outside. Lawlessness is the same everywhere.

— Why did you decide to leave in 2021? What was the last straw that broke the camel’s back?

— I did not want to leave Belarus. It was a forced exit. While being behind bars in 2020, I went out and continued to preach the word of God via the Internet, I ran a youtube channel. Policemen called me from time to time, asked if I was in Belarus, they were surprised. They thought maybe I would leave.

I was under full pressure for six months, because the Investigatory Committee was leading the case. They checked the materials of my youtube channel, social media. An examination was carried out. All the time I was in suspense, at any moment I could be accused of extremism, terrorism, and sent to jail.

But in 2021, when the Investigatory Committee finished the check, suddenly the regional prosecutor's office drew attention to my activities, and I was officially warned by the regional prosecutor's office that I was both a terrorist and an extremist, and dispelling inter-confessional and national hatred — I was accused of many things. I received a warning from the prosecutor, but even after that I did not leave. I left after a policeman came one Sunday with a prosecutor's order to conduct an inspection in the church, in the parish house, where I live, in each of these buildings, in order to take away computers, telephones, and all electronic media. However, the prosecutor was not able to write the warrant correctly, he made a mistake in the address, and they could not come and search where computers and telephones were. And so I was able to take out my equipment in order to continue preaching. They decided to give me a social death. I didn't agree.

— Father, I sometimes think that maybe this will help in our struggle, because they are not only criminals, but also idiots.

— As it is.

— Now you can often see a conflict between those who stayed and those who left, when those who stayed say: take a sip of our reality, you are not in the country now, who are you to tell us how to live, how to fight, and so on. How can this conflict be smoothed out?

— It is necessary to pay attention to the fact that Belarusians are very tired: we have been living at very high speeds for two years, when everything was emotionally difficult. First, these elections, falsifications, after the active phase of the war, and all the time there was pressure. For some of us, our nerves get on the verge, and we move on to harsh, sharp words. But at the same time, it is important to understand what guides us, we need to slow down, we need to approach ourselves more gently.

Yes, on the one hand, we see this mental split between those who stayed and those who left. Because a different experience, a different reality, a different thinking is already being developed. But we cannot rely on the fact that if there is a different experience, then that’s it, we are divided. No, we must look for what unites us. We have no right to mutually accuse each other.

Those who stayed cannot blame those who left, and those who left cannot blame those who stayed. If someone wants to blame someone, then let the one who stayed try to leave his house, everything acquired and go to a foreign country, and then evaluate. And the one who left, let them return, and then blame those who stayed. We must be more tolerant of each other, think about what we can do together, and then there will be victory.

— In my journalistic life, I have recorded many interviews with people who survived the concentration camps of World War II — Auschwitz-Birkenau in Auschwitz, Ravensbrück and so on. Unfortunately, many of them directly said that they stopped believing in God after what they saw there, after all these experiences, after all these horrors. The phrase was often heard: where was God when the children were killed? When children, innocent of anything, died in gas chambers. And it seems to me that now the time has come when we again saw what the Russians did in Bucha, in Irpin, what they did with Mariupol, with other cities, people may also appear who will say: where was God when Russian soldiers raped women, killed children, shot, tortured? What would you say to such people?

— That's a good question. Evil is also a big mystery, and there are no simple answers to such a question: where is God? But I want to pay attention to the level at which our humanity is, when everything is so twisted that today a person is trying to ask the Lord a question: God, where are you?

If you remember the history of mankind, it was different originally.

First God asked man: Adam, where are you? Then, when Adam sinned, when Adam did evil.

In this world, the Lord did not do evil, it is we who do evil. It is not the Lord who launches missiles from the territory of Belarus into the territory of Ukraine. This was done by Russian soldiers, but the Belarusian society, in a certain sense, allowed it. It is us who tacitly give consent for evil to occur, for Bucha to happen, it is us who are to blame for this. Of course, the Russian army is to blame, which committed atrocities on the territory of Ukraine, but all the evil that exists in this world is created directly by man. And the Lord allows evil so that we can show our good will, and with good we can overcome evil.

— What do you think about the ROC, the Russian Orthodox Church?

— The Russian Orthodox Church is in a huge crisis today.

— Does this structure have anything to do with God?

— It's hard to answer, but the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church, who are at the head, of course, have nothing to do with Christianity. They chose the Judas road, the road of betrayal, the road of evil. In fact, it is impossible to find such words in the Gospel that would justify an aggressive war. And so we can say that the ROC is in a deep crisis. What will happen to this church then is a huge question. On the one hand, we recognize that the church is a community that has Christ, and the gates of Hell cannot defeat the church. On the other hand, we see what the ROC needs purification today.

— I once recorded an interview with Filaret, the patriarch, at that time the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. He is well acquainted with Kirill or KGB Colonel Gundyaev, as he is also called, I think that this is a very accurate wording. They know each other very well, though they haven't seen each other for decades. I asked Filaret: what would you say to Kirill if you met? And he answered me after a pause: I would tell him that God still exists. Do you think Kirill is an atheist, since this person can calmly bless wars?

— James the Apostle says that faith without deeds is dead. If we look at the actions of the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, we cannot say that he is a believer. He demonstrates by his actions that he is an atheist. In fact, there is a very important point here. The fact is, as you recalled, many hierarchs of the Orthodox Church in the past were KGB officers.

— In the past? And now?

— And today the question is, who do they work for? Do they work for the Church of Christ or do they work in order to serve the state regime, for example, Putin. This question is open and there is no answer to it.

But there is an answer to the question: was there repentance? There was no repentance. These former KGB colonels suddenly became bishops of the Orthodox Church, and this cannot be so. First you need to break away from the old sinful life, you need to repent of it, and after that you can already take the rank in the Church of Christ. And to serve two masters: the regime, the government, and God is impossible. Thus says Christ.

— You used the word “repentance” in the context of the Church. Should there be repentance in the political plane? The people who worked, I'm talking about public people now, were part of the Lukashenka regime, they say that they are against it, in the opposition. Should such public repentance also take place in the case of public figures, politicians? What do you think?

— I am sure that repentance is equally necessary for all of us. For the Orthodox bishops, and me too, politicians — even more so. We all need repentance. When we talk about the processes that took place in Belarus in 2020 and when we say that there was no obvious success, then I see the reason precisely in the fact that there was no desire to actually repent. Repent for the fact that the Belarusian society has been building this regime for several decades. These subbotniks, joining the Belarusian Republican Youth Union, because they refused to think, because they lived not according to the law, but by order from above.

It was all regime building. And it seemed to the Belarusians: but we will wake up one morning, we will take to the streets, we will say “we want changes!” and change will come. Change doesn't happen that way. First there must be an awareness of the evil in which you have taken part. And if today you call yourself a politician, a democrat, pretend to be the one who leads a certain protest movement in Belarus, call for changes, then first of all you should also, if you openly participated in the construction of the regime and lawlessness, you should publicly repent of this and say: “I was wrong, I went the wrong way, Belarusians, forgive me, Lord, forgive me and let me try to do it differently.”

When there is such a public repentance from those leaders who built the regime, then there can be changes. And today, if the Belarusian society understands that our main fault is not some Lukashenka, but the Lukashenka who sits in our heads, then changes will take place. Then the good will celebrate victory. You need repentance, you need an understanding of your situation, this bottom of life in order to succeed later. It doesn't happen otherwise.

— Here, in the center of Warsaw, you serve holy masses in the Belarusian language. Belarusians come, with whom you communicate, talk. What do they tell you? What do you hear most often? What are the sentiments?

— When I meet Belarusians here, at the first meeting with each of those who came here from Belarus to Poland, I first of all feel the pain of a person. A person wants to share their experience, the pain they suffered, and it is important to give this opportunity to a person. They then share the injustice they faced. They tell how they were persecuted just because they wanted a more dignified, more just life. And people very often ask: why is this happening? What's the point in all this?

— And what is it?

— The Lord allows evil in the world. Evil exists so that we can show our good will. So that we can resist this evil, fight this evil. Not that we should be forced to become holy and righteous, but that we should be able to see evil and good, to choose good and to overcome evil with this good. This is the meaning of the existence of evil.

— Would you like to return to Belarus?

— Undoubtedly. This is my dream. I don’t have any words.

— And do you think this will happen in the foreseeable future?

— I don’t know when it will happen, but I want to go back. I left Belarus not because I wanted to leave Belarus. I do not see justice in this, I am not guilty before the Belarusian people,I didn't do anything wrong. But at the same time, I was forced to leave the country. Only to be able to continue preaching the word of our Lord. And therefore, I see a huge injustice towards me, towards hundreds of thousands of those migrants who also fled Belarus.

— What would you say to the people who left? After all, many did not leave in 2020 or 2021, but there are those who were forced to leave their homes 10 years ago, they cannot visit their parents, or see the graves of their grandfather, grandmother. What would you tell them?

— I would like to say that, while enduring 10-20 years, you have to endure a little more. We must not give up, we must get to work, we must change our thinking, as well as the thinking of those who left Belarus recently. And together, we must change our society, our country.

Returning to Belarus is possible. I believe that Belarus is still waiting for change. No matter how great the evil that exists today, the victory of good is still possible. The Lord has not yet said the last word in the history of Belarus.

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