Martins Stakis: Lukashenka Crossed the Line

Belarus chooses the Baltic path.

At the end of May, the mayor of Riga Martins Stakis became a hero and a favorite of many Belarusians within one day. During the Ice Hockey World Championship, he replaced the red-green flag with a white-red-white one with "Pursuit."

The well-known politician has become a guest of the Charter97.org Studio X97 website program. Host is Yauhen Klimakin. Here is a video and a transcript of the conversation:

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- Mr. Mayor, let's call a spade a spade from the very beginning. Since, in your country, I think, few people know the name of the mayor of Minsk, in Belarus, few knew before certain events who the most important person in Riga was. But they found out, thanks to the story with the flag. Please tell me how it is to wake up as a hero? Some of my friends think that you are the favorite person of millions of Belarusians. How does it feel?

- You know, I have to explain this choice to someone every day. So I cannot say that my life has become easier because of this. But I'm not the main person in Riga, by the way. In Riga, the main person is, after all, a resident of Riga. It's important for me to never forget this.

- What do you mean when you say that you practically have to explain it every day?

- Not everyone accepted this act with applause. And we have different opinions, but the most important thing is that they talk about it and there is no indifference. So I still think it was very successful.

- What is more: hate or positive reactions? I read about tens of thousands of thank you messages.

- From Belarus, there is mainly gratitude. But local media also talk about this. And in Riga, there is about 40 percent of people who do not speak Latvian in their families, and they also have their own point of view about this. But the most important thing, as I have already said, is to talk about it and not forget about you.

- Please tell us about yourself. As far as I know, you, by and large, came to politics from business.

- Yes, I started my career in a Scandinavian company. I worked there for about 12 years. Therefore, let's say, the entire Scandinavian culture and understanding of life are very close to me. And then, when I left, I created my own company, I have a couple of cafes in Riga, we sell coffee and tea. For about 10 years, I was in business, and there was such a situation that I had no idea who to vote for in the next parliamentary elections.

And so we created our own party, which had good results in parliament. I was a deputy of the Seimas and vice minister of defense. Later, I went to the elections to the Riga City Council and won.

- How long have you been following the situation in Belarus? By the way, have you ever been to Belarus or not?

- Unfortunately, I was not. I don't know when I'll go there now. But I have business acquaintances who live in Minsk. Of course, they invited me to visit them many times, but I could not come. Approximately from the beginning of the situation, right after the so-called elections, when this opposition movement began.

Before the elections, I also took part in the action. We had a very large flag of about 100 meters. We went to Lithuania, where there was a "Baltic road." Everyone then said that it was only because there were elections. But, as you can see, I support Belarus after the elections.

- Was the decision to change the flag a call of the heart or political calculation? Why did you do this?

- I am often asked this question. And I realized that it was necessary to explain this act from an emotional point of view so that people could understand why we (I was not the only one) did it. And then I always give this comparison: imagine that your neighbors in the family have a grandfather mocking his grandchildren, beating them, morally humiliating them. What are you going to do? Just looking at it? Will you say that this is none of my business? Let the parents decide their own family issues? Or will you have some kind of reaction after all? Maybe you cannot resolve this issue yourself, but you can at least call the social services, the police, and still somehow influence this situation. I think this comparison is pretty clear if we think about Belarus.

Because all that the Belarusian opposition has is faith, a flag, the Internet, where people explain their ideas. But they are also beaten every day on the street, they are bullied by the forces of this crazy grandfather. So I think the comparison is pretty clear. And when I explain this act in this way, then many already understand much better. I cannot solve the problem of Belarus, this is understandable. But I can at least bring attention to this problem. And if I succeeded, I am very pleased with it.

- What do you think about this grandfather, as you said, about Lukashenka?

- I don't think anything good about dictators. I believe that only people themselves can decide in which political system or under which regime they want to live. And with everyone who does not think so, we are not on the way. But some regimes are dictatorial, and they somehow live peacefully with their people. But some are already crossing all lines. And when the Lukashenka regime hijacked an international plane, he crossed this line, and I think that the whole world understands this.

- It seemed that there were already many situations when he crossed the line. After all, political assassinations, the persecution of people, the murder of independent media outlets and journalists began not last year, not five years ago, or ten. In particular, for example, the regime is responsible for the murder of the founder of the Charter'97 portal Aleh Biabenin. You say that the regime has crossed the red line. Do you feel that Lukashenka will get away with it this time? If we are talking about the West, about the attitude of the European Union, the United States. Or will it not work this time?

- It will not work, I'm sure of that. It's only a matter of time. What about dictators? There is also some way to live and work with the dictator. But it is very important to remember that they are predictable. You can't rely on them, but you can understand what they are doing. And this dictator himself does not understand what he is doing, and others do not understand. So, I think it's only a matter of time.

- A lot of political refugees from Belarus came to your country. Are there any approximate statistics?

- Yes, small. If, for example, in Lithuania, there are about 12 thousand who work and 10 thousand refugees, then in Latvia, in my opinion, 250 and 200. Of course, Vilnius has always been closer to Minsk than Latvia, but this is the statistics.

- Do you somehow help political refugees from Belarus? Do you have any programs?

- Let's just say there is still a lot to do, but we are at the very beginning of this path. The work began in several directions. As I see it, Riga can become a place of support and integration for newcomers. Firstly, we have a Center for District Residents, who can practically support people who want to work and live here. So that there is a place in the city where the newcomers could meet, work, advise each other.

We support foreign startups that want to start a business in Riga, as well as various national programs. But there is also something else. For example, I myself sent a letter to our government about what can be changed in the legislation to make all these processes much easier.

- Minsk and Riga are sister cities. Is there any kind of collaboration now, or is it all nominal?

- Quite nominal. Yes, Minsk became Riga's sister city, but that was a long time ago when other people were in power in Riga. Because, in recent years, there have been no large joint projects. But if democratic changes take place in Belarus, then I would definitely like the cooperation between Riga and Minsk to be very active.

Riga and Minsk at one time wanted to hold together, for example, the ice hockey championship. Personally, I really love hockey and really hope that Riga, together with free democratic Minsk, will one day be able to organize a joint championship. Minsk could also hold it on its own, I would definitely come to cheer for our teams.

This is not possible yet; unfortunately, if I come to Belarus, they will probably immediately arrest me. But I really want to visit you and personally say a big, big thank you to all those tens of thousands of residents who publicly and personally expressed their support to me. I really appreciated it very much.

- Let's hypothetically imagine the situation that the mayor of Minsk calls you and asks you: "Dear colleague, the situation is as it is, Lukashenka, as you said, grandfather, is absolutely unpredictable. Please advise what to do in this situation?" What advice would you give to the mayor of Minsk?

- You know, this is a very difficult question. And I don't think I have the right to give you such advice. We call the revolution in Latvia “the song revolution.” Yes, we also have people who lost their lives - seven people, but still, it was very peaceful, it was a completely different time. How this can happen now — I don’t know, but I know for sure that this will happen only when there is support.

30 years ago, when we were fighting for our independence, we knew that we had two brothers who always support us - Estonia and Lithuania. Now, I believe that there are already four of us. We will definitely support you. But finding your way to freedom is still your task.

- Mr. Mayor, I read, correct me if I am not accurate in the wording, that you joined a paramilitary organization in 2014.

- Not only me. It was a big wave. By the way, the vice-mayor of Riga was with me in the same battalion. This, of course, happened after the situation in Ukraine.

- You mean, of course, the annexation of Crimea, Russia's intervention in Donbas, right? The risk that Russia may come to Latvia.

- I think no one could have imagined that Russia could attack Ukraine or simply take away the territory. We are also a former USSR country. Why can't one day something like this happen: “Let's see what's in Latvia, check NATO”? Anything can happen. Many people asked themselves this question: what will I do on this day? What do I choose: to be the victim or be the fighter? And, of course, many made a decision that they would fight.

I have never been in the army. There is no longer compulsory conscription in Latvia. Therefore, many volunteered. By the way, by law, I am not subject to mobilization, but, one day, I will no longer be mayor, so I have to think about that too.

- And in the case of Belarus, do you see the risk of repeating this scenario of 2014?

- As with you - so with us. Neighbors live, the regime lives too, which is not afraid to act by such methods. This was shown by Georgia, Abkhazia, Ukraine. Anything can happen, you know. It's better to be prepared.

- You are a believer, a Protestant. Right?

- That's right, yes.

- Is there no conflict between your Christian, Lutheran faith and your willingness to shoot and fight?

- If you are walking down the street, for example, and someone attacks your children, will you protect them from the aggressor? Therefore, I think there is no contradiction here. By the way, I have worked and served in the church for 14 years as a financial director. That’s probably what it’s called. I am a Protestant, and I see Jesus Christ, maybe, differently than other believers see him. I see in him a fighter, the most courageous person who ever lived on this earth, while he is still the son of God. He always said what he thinks. He was not afraid to go against the current, to be together with people, was not very highly appreciated by society, and always, always stood for the weak. He is a hero to me.

- You have already recalled that Latvia has gone its own way of a difficult struggle against the dictatorship. As a successful people in this regard, who lives in a democratic state, where people vote, where votes are counted, not falsified, no one seized power and grabbed it with blue hands, what would you advise the Belarusian people? How to deal with dictatorship?

- I think the most important thing is that there are many of you. And there are many more of you than the regime. Perhaps, this is your strength. Of course, it is easy for them to attack one who is walking down the street or in a small group. But where there are many people, this is almost impossible.

In Latvia, our revolution, too, so to speak, took place, because we all took to the streets. And one of the most massive actions that took place in Latvia and the Baltic states was, of course, Baltijas ceļš (Baltic Way). When all the people came out and took each other's hands from the beginning of Estonia to the end of Lithuania, that is, across the entire Baltic region. It was one of the most striking actions that attracted a lot of attention from other countries. I think such campaigns are interesting, they are extraordinary, they attract attention and are the most successful ones.

- Do you believe that Belarus will free itself from the dictatorship?

- You should always believe and expect only the best. If we had lost our faith, we would probably never have done it either. For example, I learned that there was once a free, democratic Latvia when I was seven or eight years old. I have lived all my childhood with only one thought that Latvia has always been like that. How did we know this? We learned this from abroad, from those Latvians who lived in other countries, who fought for their country all the time. At that time, the fact that there was a radio helped us a lot, it is very difficult to drown out the signal. Now, I think this is easier. Because there is the Internet, there are many other ways to find out about what is happening in the world, what the world thinks about Belarus, how it supports you.

- What would you say to those who are now a little out of sorts, so to speak, who doubt the victory?

- One politician once said that we all lived locked up, but they fed us, they took care of us, everything was calm. And one day, suddenly the gates open, and everyone can go out into the street. And, of course, the first impression is the delight that it has finally happened. But then the next day comes, and you realize that now you need to find where to eat, where to stay overnight, and so on. This, of course, was a shock for many residents of Latvia. But we went through this and now, when we remember, we understand that it was the most correct decision.

And I also want to say one thing, we recently recalled that it was the 80th anniversary of the deportation of a large number of Latvian residents to Siberia. And the children who are doing an exhibition here came to me and asked the question: "Why do we need to remember this?" My answer was that it is very easy to forget such cases because you think that it will never happen again. But look what is happening in Belarus. All this can return one day and even to Latvia if every day we don’t remind ourselves how great it is, how lucky we are that we have a free country.

Do not give up. Believe in victory, and then victory will come to you because the truth is on your side.

- On the other hand, recalling your analogies that, 80 years ago, the communists exiled people to Siberia, I listen to you and think that the people survived communism, and they will also survive Lukashism.

- One died. This one will die too.

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