30 November 2021, Tuesday, 8:39
Sim Sim, Charter 97!
Categories

Natallia Radzina: We Will End Lukashenka Once And For All

16
Natallia Radzina: We Will End Lukashenka Once And For All
Natallia Radzina

How close is the end of the regime?

Well-known political scientist Dzmitry Balkunets and editor-in-chief of the website Charter97.org Natallia Radzina have discussed the situation in Belarus, and the ways out of the crisis.

- Natallia, hello!

- Hello!

- I'm glad that we finally met in Warsaw. For many years I have followed the activities of the Charter, the work that the Charter conducted while still in Belarus and after the Charter had to leave Belarus. I believe that the Charter is one of the resources that for many years persistently waged such a struggle against the regime, informing not only Belarusians, but also residents of other countries about the situation that is happening in the country, because the media that were in Belarus, even those that have now been closed, that have suffered, I believe, took such a herbivorous position, there was a kind of censorship, but they had their right to do so, existed within the framework of the system. Over the past months, over the last year that has elapsed since August 2020, Belarus has changed a lot. How close do you feel the end of the regime is?

- In fact, Lukashenka’s regime is extremely weak, and how close its end is actually depends on us. It depends on how strong, courageous and decisive we will be in continuing our struggle. Recently, I very often recall the phrase: “The winner is the one who withstands half an hour more than their opponent.” Now it is very important not to give up, it is vital not to lose hope. What we need is to understand that Lukashenka's regime is bankrupt, that Lukashenka is living out, in general, the last days, weeks, at most months, he has no margin of safety, he has no time. The year 2020 showed that the whole country, the whole people, rebelled against him.

Yes,Belarusians have fought for their freedom for decades, but during the 2020 revolution the very turning point happened, which, I am convinced, will lead Belarusians to freedom. And therefore, it is important today to continue the struggle. There can be no long-term strategy of confrontation, Lukashenka has no time. And we don't have time. Our task, our duty today is to free people from prisons. To free not only the country, but also to free the real leaders of Belarus, the best people of Belarus. We have no time to wait because people are in very difficult conditions. I myself was in prison and I know what it costs to spend even one day there.

- Did they use torture on you?

- Yes, they have always used torture, and they still do in Belarusian prisons. Now we see even deaths among political prisoners, it's scary. We do not have time to hesitate, to think, we have to fight.

- Otherwise, if you don't fight, then ...

-… we will lose even more heroes of Belarus. We have already lost the best people of the country, we have already lost in the 27 years of Lukashenka's dictatorship a huge number of real patriots, real professionals, which the country desperately needs. We do not have such a large human resource in order to waste them like that. Moreover, the situation is now extremely favorable. The most important thing is not to lose hope.

- So, in your opinion, if the situation ends or remains as it is now, Lukashenka will continue to carry out repressions, tighten the screws? Which he had been doing since August, although he began to do it before August, but after August he actually turned to mass terror. Will this situation continue, is there any limit point, will it ever stop?

- Personally, in his psychotype, he does not look like a person who can stop, he is very afraid of losing power, therefore, as long as resources allow him, he will continue repressions until we stop him. Of course, this is a very expensive pleasure, but we do not need to wait until he finally runs out of all the money, we need to fight, because it is necessary to resist this Moloch, otherwise it will not be good for anyone. It's like in the words of Pastor Nemeller, they will still come: first for some, then for others, and then they will come for you. Therefore, if we do not fight now, the repression will certainly continue.

- I remember, until August of last year, many said that “this does not concern me”, “I am beyond politics,” and then politics came to every home. Politics came to many families, especially in Minsk, many were forced to leave, even businessmen - small, big, different, although they used to be outside politics too and said, “Just think, we are nearby somewhere, we don't get into politics.” But it came to everyone's house. I think that, indeed, if you just sit and observe, without even interfering anywhere, at some point you will find yourself extreme. Because somewhere out there they noticed you on the street, as you walked past the rally, the photo got into the database - that's it, it turns out you financed all the rallies and protests or handed out some laser pointers, something else. In this situation, what should citizens do now, in a situation where repressions really take place, and they have not disappeared anywhere, they are only gaining momentum, or we froze at some point today. What should people do?

- The strike. The Belarusian Workers' Association and their leader Siarhei Dyleuski proposed to declare a strike in the country. The pre-strike state has already been announced. It seems to me that this is a very sensible initiative, it really gives us hope for changes. This may be the very key to change. Yes, I agree with you, of course, now it is dangerous to take to the streets. But what are the workers doing? They encourage people to stay at home. Employees of enterprises and budgetary organizations stay at home, and businesses go on vacation.

And this, indeed, is the safest way of protest, which can seriously affect the situation. I absolutely and completely support the 10 demands put forward by the Belarusian workers. Among them are the immediate release of all political prisoners, and the end of repression, and freedom of the media, and, in particular, negotiations with the authorities. If Belarusian enterprises stop, if people stay at home, if business goes on vacation, then this will put enormous pressure on the authorities in reality. Because today, look what we have - we have external pressure, that is, serious economic sanctions that have finally been introduced by the European Union and the United States. This puts very strong pressure on the authorities. Trust me, they are losing a lot of money every day.

- It’s not the power that loses money, the country loses, the citizens lose their income. The longer it takes, the greater the loss. Therefore, the only method, I probably agree in this situation, is that a strike is an effective method when internal resistance can give the authorities unpleasant feelings, and make them listen to the society.

- Again, I repeat - a safe way. I believe that this initiative needs to be supported now, because this is a real chance. Belarusian workers are just great.

- And it's not just the workers. Workers are one part of society, there are still students, there are doctors, there are teachers, and there are other professions. Civil servants, who, by the way, can also leave.

- They can get sick, they can take a leave. The same goes for business. I am surprised by Belarusian businessmen, for some reason they think to the last that it will not affect them, but even here in Warsaw I meet a huge number of Belarusian businessmen who had to flee, who lost everything in Belarus and now say: “What idiots we were ... Why we hoped that this would affect our colleagues, but not us ”. You can have friends in power, you can have friends in the same Main Directorate for Combating Organized Crime and Corruption, but at some point these friends disappear, bribes no longer help, because your business was liked by some bigger bighead. Today we see that arrests of businessmen, including big ones, continue in Belarus. It is impossible to exist and do business in the conditions of absolute chaos that is happening in Belarus today.

- When there is no judicial system, when a simple command is given, someone did not like someone, looked the wrong way or said something wrong - that’s it, go to jail. The case is drawn on the fly.

- These people are forced to work in a state of constant unceasing stress and at the same time risk, firstly, their business, the work of their whole lives, and risk their loved ones. Because their families are also under threat in this situation.

- A businessman always takes risks. This is a very nervous profession, I would say, even a lifestyle: a person risks money, invests their fortune, time, emotions, and energy. These are the people who make progress, as a rule. Not everyone is ready to do business. 5-7 percent of the population, but these are people who create jobs. I even looked at the base, which was recently leaked by the Cyberpartisans, there were informers. I looked just in my Slonim district, there was one informer who ratted out a farmer. And he claimed that he was a well-to-do man and so on. Has he ever thought how much this person works, how much energy, effort, time, and health he spent on cultivating some plots of land, so that every morning he wakes up and thinks about how to feed the cow there, and so on? People don't think about it.

- Well, it was planted even by the Bolsheviks.

- Yes. The principle of envy exists, although I believe that these are stereotypes that society lives by and that Lukashenka imposes them, this is a dependency that I give you everything, the state gives you everything. The state gives nothing in Belarus today. Look, medicine, how many people have died in the last year from covid. Why? Because there’s a shortage of doctors, they work in two or three shifts, there is no equipment, there is no help from the authorities. And in a situation where a new wave of a pandemic begins, it seems to me that just one of the methods is to stay at home.

- The strike will still save lives. Over a year and a half of the pandemic in Belarus, tens of thousands of people have already died, perhaps about 100 thousand, we do not know. But I know that in total these numbers are huge, because there was no quarantine, no measures were taken to combat the coronavirus, a huge number of people were not vaccinated,and a very small percentage have been vaccinated . I'm not even talking about the quality of the vaccines produced in China and Russia. In this situation, given our level of medicine, given how many doctors were fired after the 2020 revolution, a shortage of medical personnel, a shortage of medicines, equipment, and timely assistance.

Now people continue to die in huge numbers. The doctors told me that the current wave is much worse than the previous one. I myself know, because my whole family got sick in Belarus, a huge number of relatives and friends in Belarus are sick today. And this is only September, and the peak, doctors say, will be just in October-November, and if you do not stay at home today, it poses a huge threat to people's lives. Therefore, you must, of course, stay at home.

- I remember April-May last year, when the pandemic was just unfolding and Lukashenka denied the presence of this virus at all, still has not apologized to the population and society. And no one at all incurred any criminal or moral responsibility for what happened. Neither Kachanava, nor Tsertsel, nor Vakulchyk, nor other persons who croaked around him, claimed that there was no virus. What the boss said, everyone repeated. And the citizens themselves then made the right decision: more than a third of the population did not go to school, schoolchildren and students simply ignored classes, their parents did not let them go to schools. Now, I think, the fourth wave of the pandemic can take on more stringent parameters than last year's wave, and this is a more aggressive virus: I just see it in Moscow and in some Russian regions, where everything has been raging for two or three months, and for certain reasons, Moscow is sufficiently staffed with medical personnel, equipment, and vaccines, but everything is flourishing there too.

And Belarus, of course, may be exposed to much greater risks from the covid. It seems to me that protecting yourself is, first of all, thinking about yourself, not shifting it to the state. The person went to work, became infected, infected all relatives, children, grandparents, people of the older generation. And, probably, the method of staying at home is such a good, safe way and no one can say that you have to go to work. And if someone said, here is a person of pre-retirement age, they will be fired and that this will make it easier for someone if the person then dies, if they, God forbid, get sick? It seems to me that we must choose which path is correct. Is enduring the right way? Or is the right way - to think about yourself, first of all, about your family, about the safety of loved ones?

- Of course, you need to think about yourself, about the safety of your loved ones, and stay at home. Trust me, you will not save yourself in Belarus if you go to work. You think you will save jobs. No. All the same, they will be fired, all the same in Belarus massive layoffs of workers of all enterprises, including the budgetary sphere, are coming. There is no money in the treasury. The regime is bankrupt. Today we are already seeing, as a result of only the beginning of the sanctions, falling wages, massive layoffs of workers, and this will only grow, because the regime itself, its unreformed economy is already living out the last days, and now Western sanctions are still hitting. In this situation, Lukashenka will not survive, no Russia will save him, he needs a colossal, huge amount of money in order to stay afloat. Nobody will give him this money. Previously, he also received Western loans, in addition to Russian support.

Now this is not the case, plus there is a sharp drop in budget revenues from the export of petroleum products and potash fertilizers. Belaruskali is already in a fever. We should not wait until this dragon dies on its own, because it can rot for a very long time, you can very quickly change the situation, put the country on a normal track and live with dignity, get a decent salary for your work, work in decent conditions and just finally become normal happy Europeans.

- Many people say that Lukashenka kept jobs in Belarus, although this is an absolute myth. He received the legacy of the Soviet era, industrial enterprises created in the 1960-1980s. These are huge industrial giants, which in modern conditions have required and still require modernization. 15 thousand work at a hypothetical tractor plant, at other enterprises, at Belkali -15 thousand, somewhere less, somewhere more, somewhere a thousand people. To some extent, yes, he supported some kind of social employment, but there is the issue of the price of this employment, the issue of production efficiency. It is obvious that even if Lukashenka remains in power, he is forced to reduce labor resources at enterprises. These enterprises are all unprofitable. They generate nothing, no profit. They only create a kind of appearance. People come to work, they think they are working. In fact, no one, as a rule, works, and money is sucked out of the treasury.

- Moreover, keep in mind that there is a huge rise in prices. We now see that prices for all goods have already increased. Gasoline prices are endlessly rising, a number of groceries in stores, that is, the situation is deteriorating and even the minuscule fee that Lukashenka paid to the same workers at the same unprofitable enterprises is simply not enough for anything today. Just the other day I was informed that some collective farms began to pay a salary of $ 30. How to survive here...

- But, probably, in agricultural enterprises, they expect that if a person receives 30 rubles, then the rest they will earn there on the site, will grow something. By the way, thanks to this, Belarusians survived the previous crisis periods. Thanks to dacha plots and some kind of subsidiary plots, growing some kind of product on the ground and somehow supporting themselves in winter, or there in spring and summer, because in reality many would otherwise starve if it were not for such an opportunity to somehow feed themselves on their own. There are such myths that Lukashenka keeps pensioners, that if he leaves, then pensions will cease to be paid, but this is nonsense.

- Today, pensioners are primarily dying of the coronavirus. Because today they come to polyclinics and, despite their grave condition, pensioners today are not put in hospitals, but sent home to actually die. I have such a feeling that somewhere an unwritten decree was given not to treat pensioners. People are treated like a consumable material , nobody needs them. Therefore, it is an absolute myth that pensioners are for Lukashenka. Perhaps, once the pensioners were for Lukashenka, but I think it was in 1994.

- There was a pre-war generation, a war generation.

- Today's pensioners are our peers in 1994. These are 35-40 years old people who were young, who understand today that Lukashenka stole from them, what they could do at 35-40 years old, being in their prime.

- The country has been isolated all these years.

- Naturally. They could open their own business, they could travel around Europe, they could live completely differently. The quality of life would be completely different and they understand that Lukashenka stole from them, therefore, believe me, the current pensioners hate Lukashenka.

- Yes, you're right, these are his peers. The average age of a Belarusian resident today is 42 years. If you throw out the 27 years that he is already in power, it turns out that the average citizen met Lukashenka at a school desk, at the age of 14-15, and in fact, the current pensioners are the people who have lived with Lukashenka all their lives, in the conditions of the country's isolation, when they could not travel freely around the world, because the country is closed, an outcast country, they could not afford to rest not only outside the country, but even inside Belarus, as a mass occurrence . Because sanatorium treatment, although there is, it also requires certain ...

- It is not at a high level, in the first place. And quite expensive for Belarusian citizens.

- Expensive, I say, and not everyone can afford it, and secondly, sanatorium treatment should somehow renew itself, but there is no equipment, because it is prohibited. Sorry, even some pills, medicines cannot be imported into Belarus from abroad, because there is a restriction on imports and so on. And in this situation, it seems to me that really a strike and this policy of staying at home is a very reasonable approach. Even such a story as an action of general disobedience, a holiday, a protest, when people simply ignore the authorities. In May, June, July, when there was an admission campaign to universities, people ignored admission to universities - it was a disregard for the authorities. People ignored, for example, banks, taking money from banks - this is a disregard for the authorities.

- A very good initiative.

- By the way, it works because people don't trust the system. Well, or there are other methods of struggle, non-violent, when you are not suffering. If you are afraid to take to the street because you may be arrested, but you can stay at home and that's it, please. Do you remember the strike that took place in Poland, which led to a certain political transformation, the strike of 1905 in Tsarist Russia and on the territory of Belarus, which was then part of the Russian Empire. The strike also influenced many events of that period. A strike is a powerful driving factor in political changes.

- Yes, absolutely right. Therefore, now we just need everyone to work on this idea, to bring it to the attention of the population en masse. The problem is that such strikes have never been held in Belarus before, that is, they were in the early 1990s. Subsequently, Lukashenka began to destroy the independent trade union movement and, in general, the remnants of the trade unions that existed in our country, I mean the independent ones, they were not quite capable, they were not able to defend the rights of workers properly. And today the task of everyone: politicians, public figures, us, journalists, is to convey to Belarusians the information about what a strike is, how to carry it out, the idea that was voiced by the BOR, workers - to stay at home, businesses - to go on vacation. This is the know-how of the Belarusian revolution, then the whole world can use it.

When we are dealing with such a crazy, uncontrollable and deranged dictatorship, it can be stopped like this - just stay at home. Therefore, it is now important to support this idea. And to all the media to talk about this, to bloggers to talk, to you, Dzmitry, thank you very much for bringing this topic up all the time. We really have now a real chance for change, we will be idiots if we waste it.

- But you can play by the rules of power and follow the agenda of the power that Lukashenka sets. Here he sets the topic of the referendum, the constitution, and some other nonsense that he tries to invent and play according to his rules, or you can set the agenda so that he dances and makes the authorities hear the opinion of the majority, and not put the agenda in his hands. Everything he tried to do over the years.

- I absolutely agree with this, and I am surprised by the representatives of Tsikhanouskaya’s headquarters, who mainly act in line with Lukashenka’s policies, react to his initiatives, instead of suggesting a real scenario for changing the situation or supporting a real scenario for amending the situation, which is precisely the strike today. ... Because you can hold forums in Vilnius as much as you like, some kind of conferences, come up with empty initiatives, but, excuse me, people are in prisons, while you live in Vilnius, while everything is fine with you. In the end, Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has a husband in prison, but why don’t I see any sensible initiatives from her headquarters, but I hear only some kind of demagogy, and see the constant delay of real actions?

- Negotiations, about which, among other things, positions from Vilnius were sounded, they are possible, but only when the government is pressed, in such a situation it will be, when there is no turning back. On the part of the authorities, I am sure the healthy core will ripen, which will be ready to negotiate. And the comrade will be simply isolated, arrested, I do not know what they will do to him. Because today he is, among other things, a ruiner of some business interests of the near-government, as they are called, scoundrels and so on, there are such people too. Well, or a ruiner of the careers of many in the law-enforcement and other structures. And there are a lot of people who are competent enough and are professionals. Replacing tens of thousands of officials in regional and other positions is unrealistic. Where to get them? And they will work, many in their positions. The system will change, there will be an election of mayors of cities, heads of regions and districts, and so on. This will give an opportunity, a new impulse, and so on. But negotiations must be prepared, the ground must be there for them. And a strike, if it happens, will become the basis for negotiations. But the strike is not one day: a week, two weeks, a month. Until the authorities feel that the country has stopped, metro lines have stopped, rail and road transport have stopped, roads are blocked, and so on. This is a real strike, but society must come to this by its own actions.

- As for the officials, it seems to me that each of them should think today: either they want to continue to live in this country, to serve this country, live in peace and harmony with the people of Belarus, or they want to take potassium cyanide together with Lukashenka in the bunker ...

- About the bunker. I was in Berlin not very long ago, and I went to Hitler's bunker. It is restored. The first bunker was destroyed, but about 5 years ago they opened a copy of Hitler's bunker, the room was reproduced, where he and his wife finished off, first he took cyanide, and then shot himself. This was a signal to others. After that, the Goebbels family killed their 5 children and committed suicide themselves. This was the end of the dictator.

- Belarusian officials, is this how you want to end your life?

- He will leave, and the rest will answer. And the rest went to the tribunal in Nuremberg, half were hanged later at the end of the international tribunal, someone went to jail. And those who did not even get there and someone escaped there - they had a stigma for their whole life and not only for them, but also for their families, because no one communicated with them. I even heard the stories of those who took part in some way on the side of Nazi Germany during the war years on the territory of Belarus and other countries, they could not live, their families left the country for some remote areas so that no one knew or see. An outcast. The family is an outcast, children are outcasts, relatives are all outcasts. Because all of them were considered punishers and police goons. And now the situation is the same. Lukashenka has split the country, he is trying to split it, trying to drive a wedge, trying to embroil, setting people against each other. This policy, I think, is absolutely mediocre. This close circle, it is small in fact, no matter how they try to draw, it is a small circle. They are trying to save him somehow.

- It's a small circle, about 15 people.

- Kachanava, Tsiartsel, Vakulchyk, Halouchanka to a lesser extent. Some other people, Karayeu or someone. What are they protecting? Which country are they defending? What are their values?

- They protect themselves and their well-being. There are no ideas, no values, no principles. These people have nothing. But for the most part, I still believe that there are worthy people among Belarusian officials, there are patriots who are still able to step over their fear and just see the prospect, just add two plus two and understand that the Lukashenka regime is over. Let's come to an agreement, because there is no other way to change the situation.

- There have been many appeals to the Charter over the past year, visitors from Belarus?

- Yes, absolutely. And the number of visitors is constantly growing, despite the fact that the authorities have blocked us. Blocked preventively.

- Blocked even before the elections?

- Yes, in 2018. And then I warned my colleagues that if there were no serious reactions, I warned the West, then Lukashenka would go further and he would block all websites, which, in fact, happened in 2020.

- Although, I said so politely, some sites that worked in Belarus were herbivores, they did not touch Lukashenka, they wrote either well or nothing.

- Dzmitry, I’ll tell you more: some sites, we will not name them, even having gone abroad today, with colleagues in prison, are still herbivores. And so I think to what degree of cowardice you need to get, that in such a situation, when you are safe and your colleagues are in prisons, why are you still afraid, what are you afraid of? Because when the founder of the site was killed, when our journalists were imprisoned, when I went to the KGB prison and we were finally able to leave the country, we became even bolder. When we were blocked, we became even bolder.

You see, the tougher the repression, the more a person must resist them. All the more journalists, if they really are journalists, must resist, because, well, where else, they have already been driven under the plinth. But, fortunately, in Belarus there are still courageous journalists, there are courageous bloggers. By the way, I really want to mention Belarusian bloggers.

- Many are behind bars.

- Many are jailed, yes. And by the way, they don't talk much about them, and all journalistic organizations must talk about bloggers. Firstly, these are representatives of the mass media, in any case. There are bloggers today who are much more popular than some media. A kind of blogger revolution has taken place in Belarus. Because on the eve of 2020, when many independent media were cowardly, bloggers spoke out very boldly, very radically and directly called on Belarusians to fight for freedom. For which, in general, many of them ended up in prisons, such as Aliaksandr Kabanau, Siarhei Piatrukhin, Siarhei Tsikhanouski, Dzmitry Kazlou, Uladzimir Tsyhanou, Ihar Losik and many, many others, a huge number. A lot of brave guys. Therefore, Dzmitry, as a blogger, thank you very much, although, of course, you are also a well-known political scientist, but this is indeed the channel that is extremely important under dictatorships.

- And this is exactly the reason why bloggers and Telegram channels flourished in Belarus. If there were media in Belarus, media competition, then, of course, bloggers would occupy some niche, but there would be competition in the media environment, there would be resources that they read, there would be officials who would communicate with different resources, conduct press conferences, mayors of cities and other decision-makers, so that there is accessibility and the possibility of communication, so that citizens can, for example, in Switzerland, in referendums, decide the fate of a street, a shopping center, a monument, a public garden. But in Belarus, nothing is possible, everything is suppressed.

Therefore, bloggers are the only opportunity to convey information to the public, and when the public hears it, it thinks: “It turns out that it was possible this way, but it cannot be done this way”. And the authorities are trying to close it all down, suppress it, burn books, destroy it, remove it from literature. The leader of Belarus Shushkevich was removed, before Masherau was removed, someone else was removed there from the Soviet leaders. Lukashenka believes that he is the founding father of the Belarusian state, although this is not the case. And people forget their history, but we must remember the mistakes that were made before. For many, by the way, thanks to the bloggers and the films they made, the murders that Lukashenka committed in the 1990s became a discovery. He ruled for so long that someone was already born in his era and did not know that, it turns out, he came to power on blood, that he made a constitutional coup in 1996 and so on. All this, of course, must be brought to the surface again. And the Europeans need to be reminded of that.

- “That is why, together with Stsiapan Putsila Nexta, we shot the film “Lukashenka. Criminal materials. And it was shown specifically for young people, for people who cannot read it in history textbooks, what Lukashenka did, what happened in Belarus over these 27 years. Of course, people need to be told, they need to be reminded. It is impossible to destroy everything. Lukashenka does not understand at all what it's the 21st century, he does not use a computer, he lives with Soviet stereotypes.

- Stuck in the 1980s.

- In the 1930s-1950s, he got stuck. He thinks that you can strangle everything, free speech, put everyone in jail. No no no. Times have changed, nothing will come of it, nothing will work.

- One of the people who once worked with him told me what he said to them at a meeting in a closed format. He gathered journalists, all the officials of the journalistic pool and told how to publish a wall newspaper. How he published a wall newspaper in the 1970s at school and taught them to work like this, as he did then in the 1970s. That is, a person is stuck very, very far in the Soviet past. He does not develop at all, does not change and lives in a closed environment, where enemies are all around. The enemies are Europe, NATO, all the neighboring countries that are trying to pick him up there somehow, there are some wars in his head.

- Let's not go into the history of his illness.

- He is absolutely sick, I totally agree. What place do you think he will take in history, in 50 years, not now?

- I know that now he will take a place in prison, this is unambiguous. As for history - certainly, as a dictator and as a phenomenon that should never be repeated in Belarus. Just never. Therefore, only a shameful place.

- When I visited the Hitler Museum, Hitler's bunker in Germany. There are many floors, this is how you walk around the floors, reading these materials in German, in English, but you still immerse yourself in the environment, how it was formed, how Nazism was planted in Germany, how it came to power, thanks to what, why the society supported it. And it seems to me that the same museum is absolutely necessary in Belarus: how the current fascist regime was formed in Belarus, including the destruction of the parliament, censorship, the destruction of opponents. All these stages must be passed and the society must be shown the mistakes that have been made. Because it seems to me that after all, some of these processes took place with the support, publicly and privately, of the society. After all, who did the election commissions, who falsified? Citizens, residents of Belarus did. And to some extent, I believe, they are also responsible for the crimes that the regime is committing, and committed. Because, perhaps, this is how the circumstances developed, but I believe that it must be presented in the future so that these mistakes are not repeated. Appropriate conclusions should be drawn.

- There must be condemnation and repentance.

- Yes, absolutely. Not some malicious joy, destroy everyone there, and so on. A healthy balance must be found so that all such mistakes are studied. The perpetrators, if they have committed some real atrocities, must be punished. And those who somehow stood on the sidelines, watched, should draw appropriate conclusions.

- This person should realize, people should realize that they worked for the dictatorship. They must admit: “I worked for this dictatorship.” Someone connived, someone was silent: “I was silent”, “I betrayed.” It is important to realize this, even for your own psychological calm, without speaking already about the future of the country. In order for this not to be repeated, repentance and condemnation of this regime must occur, this must not be repeated. In general, something that did not happen with Stalinism, why we see the constant reincarnation of Stalin in Russia. We must end the Lukashenka regime once and for all.

- But you know that they started with Stalinism in Russia, the first attempts were made to remove it under Yeltsin, and they only partially took place when the streets were renamed.

- Vladimir Bukovsky suggested holding a trial of the CPSU in general. This was actually a very important initiative, which was not supported though, including by Yeltsin himself. Because, in general, he himself was a representative of this criminal party and could fall under lustration.

- Therefore, he was not interested, and when Bukovsky came to Yeltsin and asked to give him the KGB archives, how he was persecuted, Yeltsin called the head of the committee and said: “Listen, Bukovsky will come there, give him the archive.” Bukovsky came, he was received at the reception department, his file was brought, and it said: “A week ago, the case was destroyed due to the expiration of the statute of limitations.” He should have come a week earlier. But, naturally, nobody showed him anything. They simply either hid or destroyed the archive.

- But Vladimir Bukovsky managed to get a lot of unique data from the KGB archives.

- Do you think it is worth opening the KGB archives in the future?

- I think this is definitely important.

- Soviet or even current ?

- Both Soviet and current. It is important. This should be open information.

- Even if it hurts, for example, certain interests, or should there still be a balance?

- First of all, a public commission for the investigation of crimes should be created, and this public commission must have access to these materials.

- If we return to the topic of the strike. In your opinion, heads of enterprises, a lot depends on them, the so-called red directors. Do they have something to fear? How should they behave?

- First of all, stop pressure on workers.

-Go aside, be silent.

- Undoubtedly. They have such an opportunity. Somewhere close your eyes, somewhere do not pay attention, somewhere tell about the strike, warning, as ideologists do today at enterprises, about the opposite, but nevertheless it is informing the population. There are various possibilities to be with the people, not to carry out repressions, not to fire or intimidate people.

- Don't rat them out.

- Don't rat them out to the police. Today workers are very closely watching the directors of their enterprises, believe me. Today, the Cyberpartisans began to publish the data of the heads of the largest Belarusian enterprises, and this is very important.

- Start scaring them. They began to be afraid.

- And they must understand that they will not be able to hide from the people. Today we see the publication of the personal data of both the director of Belaruskali Halavaty, and the general director of Hrodna Azot Lyashenka, and many, many others. They should understand that people are watching them, God forbid they bully us or our families. They themselves must be aware of the extent of their own responsibility.

- Maybe they live in a small town.

- Naturally, everyone is in sight, everyone sees everything, and everyone knows everything. Therefore, I urge directors of enterprises to think about it, they also have families, children, they also live in this country. Think about it, don't go against people.

- What are the students to do?

- Under no circumstances should students attend classes. Just don't go to class.

- There are disciplines that are taught distantly, they can study remotely, and so on. Don't come to university.

- Now, in the context of the coronavirus, some universities are already transferring to distance learning. But I also suggest that teachers in universities do not go to work, “get sick”,take a sick leave. You just need to stop working today, everyone, including students. I think the students will only be happy.

- And the main thing is to stop being afraid. Because someone thinks: “I'm going to be fired.” But a person must understand that they are in charge at their workplace.

- A month, we need to hold out for a month, everyone: workers, state employees, and students. Maximum a month. Maybe less.

- Regarding the month, many say that the salary will not be paid. Is it really so that 200, 300, 400, 500, 1000 dollars at the maximum ...

- You will lose much more if the situation does not change.

- Nobody dies for $ 500.

- Undoubtedly.

- No one will definitely die of hunger for this money. Maybe everyone has a different situation, but I am sure that this is not the kind of money for which it is worth sacrificing oneself, country, security, health and other things. This is precisely the method of non-violent, rather tough resistance, demonstration of unity. And it seems to me that this is the right path to walk. In your opinion, forecasts are, of course, difficult to give, but if a strike happens, how long will he have left to exist?

- The workers say that a month is enough. I agree with them. Perhaps shifts and changes will begin much earlier.

- Will they arrest him?

- Anything can be. There may be different scenarios. I think that the authorities will be forced to negotiate with the people if the whole country stands still.

- Without him?

- Perhaps without him, if he is completely inadequate. It is obvious that a person is growing problems of various kinds.

- Thanks friends. I think that we will end our conversation on this. And I am sure that the topic of the strike is becoming more and more acute. I have also received many messages, including from doctors, and the workers of several enterprises wrote to me about the situation. I think that a lot depends on each of you, on your solidarity, your desire to change something. And I am sure that we will continue our conversation with Natallia in the future. Thank you very much, thank you for this, one might say, frank conversation. It seems to me that what the Charter is doing and what it has done in the recent years is worthy of a separate media encyclopedia, because when we talk about the formation of a certain history of modernity in Belarus, it should be formed on the basis of some primary sources, based on a set of news, some facts and so on. It seems to me that some materials will have to be drawn from there.

- Dzmitry, thank you very much for your appreciation. Long live Belarus! Let there be a strike!

- Let there be a strike! Bye everyone!